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(continued from the previous issue)

To access all the previous issues of Conversations With Sai, please click here.

Discipline and Conscience

Ac: What to do with a devotee who is making friction in a Center?

SAI: Out. Put them out.

H (Hislop): Our discipline is very strict in the American Centers. That is correct.

SAI: Sai's English has improved?

H: Yes, Swami. It is greatly improved.


SAI: All is love. All is love. The Russians are rationalists. Faith is of the greatest importance. Words, words, words; reason will not do. Faith is from the heart, the language of the heart.

H: But faith is a gift from God. Man can only have it if God wills.

SAI: Yes, God blesses. Purity helps. Swami is soft as butter, but hard as a diamond. Butter soft, diamond hard. Some small freedom I allow; not very much. The end of wisdom is freedom. That is the true freedom. Discipline is important. Swami demands strict discipline. Many foreigners are outside in the village. There man can sit beside woman and they can smoke. Inside the Ashram, Swami does not allow that.

H: A good small pamphlet explaining the rules of the Ashram should be given to everyone. People do not know. Germans in the round building play loud tape recorders because they do not know better.

SAI: In a room next to Admissions, someone should repeat the rules to each newcomer.

H: An important statement of Swami's is that we should ignore the faults of others. But how does one put this into practice? If one is dealing with a person, the fault must be taken into account; the fault may ruin the situation.

SAI: Inside himself, the person is not like that. He knows he is wrong. If the fault is being expressed, move away from the person, keep a distance. Then the person will see he is wrong and will approach you in repentance.

SAI: What counts is faith. Faith is of great importance. God should be installed in every thought and act. There may be a person who is the owner of a house. A tenant may be taken into the house, and year after year the tenant may pay the rent. At last, after many years of paying the rent, the tenant owns the house.

H: Why would that be?

SAI: The owner might say, "The house is mine." But the tenant will reply, "No. The house is now mine." That is the law.

H: Is that the law in this situation?

SAI: Yes. It is the same with the Lord. He is the "renter." Your body and mind is the "house." Once you have brought Him into the house and installed Him there, in due course, He is the "owner." The house no longer belongs to "you." It is now the dwelling of God. It is fully "owned" by Him.

H: Swami! That is wonderful! That is the way to come to the point of "Surrender to the Lord." By keeping Baba in heart and mind, gradually and naturally, there is full surrender.

SAI: Yes, it comes to be quite naturally. But not everyone is able to do it. Devotion and faith need be very strong.

H: But cannot everyone make a start?

SAI: Yes, certainly, a start can be made.

H: May I tell this to our Sai Centers in America?

SAI: You may tell.

Three Stages of Evolution

H: Swami gives three stages of evolution beyond the human: Superhuman, Cosmic, and Absolute. What does superhuman mean?

SAI: Superhuman is the stage of complete detachment from Body and World. Something may be said or done at this stage to benefit humanity and the world, but the Superhuman is no longer a part of the world of men nor involved in the interests of men.

H: Are there such people now?

SAI: Oh, yes.

H: Are they those people in the Himalayan Mountains who can be invisible and do the extraordinary things we hear about?

SAI: No. Those individuals are still seeking liberation. But it is temporary.

H: Temporary, Swami! That is awful! To get liberation and then lose it!


SAI: There are three kinds of liberation. It is experienced in one type of Samadhi. Then, a person who is engaged in Sadhana can suddenly - like a flash of lightening - have a clear vision of the Truth, but it fades and ordinary life resumes. Liberation cannot be permanent without total surrender.

H: Then, if not the people in the Himalayas, who are the Superhumans?

SAI: (Naming half a dozen or so of the ancient sages) These people were totally above human and worldly life, although for the benefit of others, they would give certain advice and engage in certain actions.

H: But that was long ago. Are there Superhumans in this day and age?

SAI: Oh, yes, there are. But today, outwardly, they live in Society and outwardly cannot be recognized.

H: What is the Cosmic stage?

SAI: No body, no mind. Both have disappeared. Body, feelings, mind, intelligence are no longer there. Just love, just spirituality.

H: Are there entities, individuals, in the Cosmic stage?

SAI: No. No individuals. More similar to currents of spiritual power.


Swami Bestows Full Liberation

H: Well, the Absolute is Swami. That is understood. When Swami says He will confer liberation at death, what does that mean?

SAI: It means that birth is finished with, there is no more birth again.

H: But Swami, there is this temporary liberation that was mentioned. Maybe it is that kind?

SAI: No, it is not like that. Sai gives total, final, liberation.

H: Could there be the ending of individuality, too?

SAI: There could be.

H: Individuality is a nuisance.

SAI: Yes, individuality is a nuisance.

H: One of Swami's statements is not understood. Swami has said that man is born with a dual gift from God - Discrimination and Conscience. And that because of conscience, everyone knows right from wrong; for, if he were to do wrong, his conscience would trouble him.

SAI: Yes, that is the case.

H: But people point out, Swami, that people of one religion kill people of another religion, and they do it because their conscience tells them it is right to do it.

SAI: It is not that way. When such things occur, it is because the individual has surrendered his judgment to someone else, or to an idea propagated by someone. If the person were to reject ideas and rely upon himself, his conscience, even though deeply buried, would be there to prompt the person; for Conscience is God, Resident in the person.

H: Throughout the world, crime is growing rapidly. But in America, there is doubt about how to deal with criminals. How should criminals be dealt with?

SAI: There must be punishment. In areas of the Middle East, for example, if a person commits the crime of theft, the hand is cut off. When a person commits a crime, punishment must follow.

The Stages in the Life of the Avatar

H: Swami, people are thinking that after His 60th Birthday, Bhagavan Baba will step away from contact with the world and that His devotees will no longer have access to Him.

SAI: No, not at all. Sai is not separating from the world, nor will He separate from His devotees. The course of an Avatar goes invariably through the same stages. It is the same for every Avatar at all times. The first 16 years are characterized by constant leelas. Then leelas and teachings up to age 45. From age 45 to age 60, the emphasis is almost wholly on teaching. At age 60, there is a very big change.

H: How, Swami? (Sai listed some things I should not repeat, but then...) After age 60, Sai will directly give added strength to the minds of those persons who are actively working with Him. Now is starting a time of change. It is just as when a strong wind comes up and blows away the husks, leaving only the sound kernels. In these times, many devotees will fall away from Sai, leaving only those devotees whose faith is sound and solid. Have not you yourself noted a change? In the early years Sai came to your room to talk with you. Now, you come to the veranda each day and Sai does not even stop and speak with you. Such changes occur in the different stages of the Avatar.


H: Swami has said that the entire world will know of His presence. At this time only a relatively few people know of Sai. As of now only local individuals represent Him, and they do not draw the attention of people of substance and importance throughout the world.

SAI: Sai does not look at status and worldly importance. He looks at the heart.

H: Yes, Swami, but it is the leaders in society who tend arouse the attention and interest of the general population.

SAI: Sai does not force such things. He will be in body for many more years. What you refer to will develop naturally. Devotees of world stature, able to speak of Sai, will be present when the time is correct for them.

(To be continued...)

To access all the previous issues of Conversations With Sai, please click here.

– Heart2Heart Team

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Vol 5 Issue 07 - JULY 2007
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